So I take your point that there are spaces where if you dont fight, its never going to happen. Finally, behavioral racism is the belief that racial groups have different behavior patterns. He writes, quote, if all my words were doing was sounding radical, then those words were not radical at all. If theyre losing it now, well, the children are our future, and were going to try to win it there again. Right. Lets say thats a cause of the crime. targeting:{ What if we measure the conservatism of speech by how intensely it keeps people the same, keeps people enslaved by their racist ideas and fears, conserving their inequitable society, end quote. And Ill give the example here of open borders, which is a policy that undoubtedly, like, you look at the economics, almost nothing we could possibly do would be better for reducing global inequality. Maintenance Phase is pivotal in contributing to a dramatic shift in our culture and the way Once they start realizing, whoa, this isnt even good for me, then those politicians largely who are in the GOP have nothing politically left to stand on. [MUSIC PLAYING]. The second thing is the fact that anti-racist education is actually helpful and protective for white children. This kind of thinking is the essence of racism. For those who havent read the book or who have absorbed its ideas through cultural osmosis, what does it mean to be an antiracist? Even chattel slavery ending seem politically impossible. And some people have believed that the cause of crime, particularly the cause of crime in Black neighborhoods, are those Black people. And Id like to get you to talk a bit about it. In all seriousness, I think, in that case, we really would have to think very deeply about, how do we convey and promote this policy in a way that is not going to then lead to this reactionary sort of response. What would it be in a year, what would it be in 10 years? And I found that actually was not the case. IBRAM X. KENDI: Well, Ezra, Im happy you ask about that because there are policies that are pretty straightforward. The inverse to that is creating a joyful lifeone where people can enjoy their lives and, no matter race, can grow. This is a dangerous book. Were seeing this now with I think the example of voting is an extremely obvious example, where particularly the Republican Party is recognizing that the demographics and the ideology of the country is turning away from them. [MUSIC PLAYING], The Ezra Klein Show is a production of New York Times Opinion. And when Im writing Stamped From The Beginning and when Im writing How To Be An Antiracist, people have consistently said, why are you being so direct? Its another thing to never battle. But for whatever reason, it doesnt make as much sense for us to have an assessment, an analytical assessment, of that same tax bill to understand, is this going to grow or reduce the racial wealth gap, as an example, or is it going to create more income inequality, whether thats income inequality across racial groups or even between racial groups or even between genders. I think you do believe, if Im not wrong, that a community that is pushed into poverty, that is denied health care, that is denied mental health care, thats denied good jobs is a community where youre going to see more crime and more acts of desperation. What are the policies that happen alongside of it? 34 Felonies Are Just the Start. WebHill meets Ibram X. Kendi, who argues in favor or the teaching of systemic racism and critical race theory in schools, and The Heritage Foundation's Mike Gonzalez, a conservative, argues against. It was just and it has remained to be just a whirlwind. EZRA KLEIN: I do want to push you on whether or not the trade-up is there. And if thats the case, then it makes sense that you need police, well-funded police, who can basically control those animals because theyre the cause of the crime. We dont have evidence that supports the rising levels of homicides over the last year has been because the police have been defunded. And I think that the antiracist framework says, you got to take that really seriously. So if you want to change hearts and minds, change policy, and hearts and minds will follow. And I think on a policy thats going to have a mixed impact on racial disparities and inequities, thats when we, of course, have to make a decision. All these people picked up the book, and then the book is just a pretty aggressive attack on symbolic forms of antiracism. Daniel Steinmetz-Jenkins. Listen to the full, unedited conversation by subscribing to the Laura Flanders Show podcast at Lauraflanders.org. In his concluding chapter, Kendi reveals that he, his mom, his dad, and his wife Sadiqa are all cancer survivors, and he uses their fight as a metaphor for Americas fight against racism. Instant downloads of all 1711 LitChart PDFs

But for whatever reason, we dont engage in that form of analysis. Laura FlandersTwitterLaura Flanders is the author of several books, the host of the nationally syndicated public television show (and podcast) The Laura Flanders Show and the recipient of a 2019 Lannan Cultural Freedom Fellowship. EZRA KLEIN: The Ezra Klein Show is a production of New York Times Opinion. And were in the midst of this big anti-critical race theory backlash, which of all the things I thought might become the name for the backlash, I did not expect critical race theory to make the cut. Everyone expected that. And so they had to appeal to the changing demographics of the country. I wanted people to strive to be actively antiracist. Youre going to struggle in so many different ways. I dont know if I necessarily agree with scholars who make the case that Black communities have criminogenic conditions. So whats it all been like for you? And the number of white Americans who are challenging other white Americans, it seems like the majority of white Americans, according to polls, are at least aware of racism and see it as a problem and racism not, quote, antiwhite racism but the racism that is causing inequities between racial groups. To contextualize the progression of racism and racist ideas, Kendi presents extensive information about the state of race-based science during the lifetimes of all his key characters, as well as the state of popular culture and its depictions of Black Americans. His argument there was that it doesnt matter what you intend, it doesnt matter what you feel, all that matters the only thing that matters is outcomes. But then there are other bills in which, like you said, its mixed. Oftentimes theres this belief that if were open and honest about racism, it will automatically hurt us politically, and I just dont know whether thats necessarily always the case. Now you can make a long-term argument here about, if we can my approach to this is always, can you create a world where you can then defend the police? As always, my email is [emailprotected] Heres Ibram X. Kendi. #EquityTalks #IbramXKendiSee more videos like this via http://g.co/TalksAtGoogle/RacialEquity And often, thats it. And these, quote, race neutral policies are by definition not racist, even if they are creating more inequity and injustice. As African American studies faces resistance, a conversation about the continued relevance of Im being sort of tugged into more in the limelight because people have died and died brutally. Its really his enemy in the book. IBRAM X. KENDI: Both of those plans obviously had many different elements to them. I think you became not just a person but also a symbol. It doesnt matter why youre doing it. tn_loc:'atf'

And so for me, if we were to replay that time, and if Obama would have came out and said, the Tea Party is racist and its being driven by racist ideas and that would then have led to a backlash which ultimately prevented the Affordable Care Act from passing, and so we had that option or the option of what he did, I would certainly choose and support him or someone else from not making that claim. But I do want to push, because this is one of the hard parts of the theory to me, I do think theres good evidence that more police, in a narrow way, means less crime. Although he was received problematically as an extraordinary Negro, Obama's presidency enabled many racists to argue that the problem of race in the United States is over and that society is now post-racist. Biological antiracists, on the other hand, reject the idea that racial differences are biological or genetic. In How to Be an Antiracist, Dr. Ibram X. Kendi presents a theory of antiracism, a system of ideas and policies that fight racial inequity. So he was trying to figure out other ways to affect her and I think, you know, the fact that he would use my work and distort it, and then to see how difficult it was for her in that moment, I think was very difficult for me to see. IXK: This certainly wasnt in the plans, and it didnt really come into the plans until I became a father in 2016, right around the time my second book Stamped from the Beginning came out. But then theres the issue of politics, which I think theres actually more tension around in your book. It dominates bestseller lists. I think the principle and this becomes a principle within the courts, which, of course, is outlandish, but you asked. But what it also speaks to is the current crisis, the crisis of COVID-19, or even the crisis of democracy, or even the crisis of Trumpism could potentially open the door for people to be willing to be daring or countervailing forces allowing particular elected officials to support something that in another time may not be sound politically.

Kendi makes this clear in the first two double-page spreads: Antiracist Baby is bred, not born. What if the cause is the lack of resources for local schools since theyre so based on property taxes? White people are dying at higher levels by the police than other groups of white folks. And then the world changed, your role in the world changed.

And that then allows us as a community, as a multiracial community, or even within the Black community, if on the one hand its going to help, on the other hand, its going to hurt, to essentially make a decision. And I dont see a lot of that. (including. What if the cause is the lack of resources for local schools since theyre so based on property taxes? Teach your students to analyze literature like LitCharts does.

Complete your free account to request a guide. Today, Kendi is a regular contributor to The Atlantic and the founding director of the Boston University Center for Antiracist Research. Subscribe to the TED Talks Daily newsletter. For one thing, I think you see a very clear admission on the part of the right of this conversation that they might be losing control of the American narrative, and they want to get it back. I think the corporate example is an interesting one here because one of the things youve seen over the past year is a huge investment in diversity, equity, and inclusion trainings in companies. Ethnic racism is the belief that one ethnic group is superior to another. Virtually everyone believes in some racist ideas, and racism is not always conscious. So one of the ones that came to mind for this was, for the past couple of years, the Federal Reserve has really held interest rates down. Kendi explains that, "like fighting an addiction, being an antiracist requires persistent self-awareness, constant self-criticism, and regular self-examination." And maybe thats me really playing to type on this one. Because it often seems to me theres a question of, well, what is the racial inequality impact right now? What are three books you would recommend to the audience? As opposed to, if things stayed as they were, youre going to struggle economically. And I wanted to push Kendi on some of the hard questions his framework demands we ask of the debates weve had in the past couple of years. How do you think about policies where they would undoubtedly decrease racial inequality but the political backlash they could create might increase it by electing reactionary politicians? But then the world changed. And that then allows us as a community, as a multiracial community, or even within the Black community, if on the one hand its going to help, on the other hand, its going to hurt, to essentially make a decision. This is the mantra of white supremacy, and I dont think many people are willing to acknowledge just how mainstream this white supremacist talking point is. Achim Steiner, head of the United National Development Programme Big idea: The public and private []. And its a very thin line between saying that theres no such thing as a dangerous unemployed neighborhood and theres a dangerous Black neighborhood because of unemployment. It is produced by Jeff Geld, Roge Karma and Annie Galvin, fact-checked by Michelle Harris, original music by Isaac Jones, and mixing by Jeff Geld. I was actually in a pretty important meeting that I couldnt end and so I actually dont think I saw it until several hours later.

Its also important to engage the child about these topics, because theyre going to have questions and Id rather you answer those questions than a white supremacist lurking online. Ive also used the stories of history, particularly with white Americans. Thank you for having me on. He is the author of four books includingStamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America, which won National Book Award for nonfiction, and the New York Times bestsellersHow to Be an AntiracistandSTAMPED: Racism, Antiracism, and You, coauthored with Jason Reynolds. An example running through my head as you were talking is I recently did an interview with former President Obama. And then I think what is also being recognized and I think this is what I argued and showed in How To Be An Antiracist, this is what Jonathan Metzl argued in his book called Dying of Whiteness, this is what Heather McGhee recently demonstrated in her new book, The Sum of Us, that structural racism has not just harmed people of color, its also harmed white people. And one of the things that Ive been thinking about from the perspective of your book is, theres very little evidence on whether or not these trainings do anything. So I think the fundamental question is, what is going to be more effective in eliminating or reducing, particularly, levels of violent crime. White people dont know that white people had to go to court to get some of the Jim Crow voting laws in the South lifted because it was making it harder for white people to vote. But what I didnt really expect is people just dont do it.

And we have to come together to decide as a community, is this the type of policy we should pass? In all seriousness, I think, in that case, we really would have to think very deeply about, how do we convey and promote this policy in a way that is not going to then lead to this reactionary sort of response. What is the importance of war in Mrs. Dalloway? In contrast, antiracism is a set of antiracist policies, justified by antiracist ideas, that produces racial equity. Kendi is professor in the humanities at Boston University, where earlier this year resurrected the abolitionist paper, The Emancipator, in collaboration with The And then we talk, of course, about the right-wing backlash to his ideas and the way the anti-critical race theory movement has used him as their central villain. I think whats being described as critical race theory is any analysis, critical analysis, of race or racism in this country that does not position this country as post-racial, any attempt to hold people who are being racist accountable, any attempt to have a clear and complex multivariate approach to American history, whereby we actually document and talk about and teach about the history of racism in this country, and certainly attempts to create outcomes that are more equitable and just. You are free: to share to copy, distribute and transmit the work; to remix to adapt the work; Under the following conditions: attribution You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. But typically, those policies were able to be instituted in the context of a crisis. But its also not inevitable: people can always unlearn their racism and become antiracist. Look at the soaring white support for desegregated schools and neighborhoods decades after the policies changed in the 1950s and 1960s. They're like having in-class notes for every discussion!, This is absolutely THE best teacher resource I have ever purchased. He divides the book into five sections, each of which revolves around the life of a person who contributed significantly to the discourse around racespecifically regarding the dynamics between Black and White Americans. It doesnt matter why youre doing it. But I just think that for our bills we should be tracking the racial impact. And I think to complicate it even further, there will be policies that, lets say, close gaps between, lets say, Black people and white people and open gaps between, lets say, white people and Latinx people.

EZRA KLEIN: And theres a move youre making here. Web"The only way to undo racism is to consistently identify and describe it -- and then dismantle it." All these people picked up the book, and then the book is just a pretty aggressive attack on symbolic forms of antiracism. Detailed explanations, analysis, and citation info for every important quote on LitCharts. Ibram X. Kendi, your podcast is Be Antiracist. You have a great new interview with Heather McGhee, if people looking for a place to jump in there. Like, what you are asking for here actually would require so much rigor, so much constant measuring of policies and uncertain questions that would people really do it, and would they be able to do it? It is produced by Jeff Geld, Roge Karma and Annie Galvin, fact-checked by Michelle Harris, original music by Isaac Jones, and mixing by Jeff Geld. And so you have to sequence things in a certain direction, where youre being able to solve the underlying problem so you can then remove these other problems.

Is creating a joyful lifeone where people can always unlearn their racism and become antiracist amplifying some what... Know if I necessarily agree with scholars who make the case that Black communities have criminogenic conditions curious you... Is a regular contributor to the full, unedited conversation by subscribing the... That supports the rising levels of homicides over the last year has been because the have... Our bills we should be tracking the racial inequality impact right now a guide that anti-racist education actually... If something else is happening antiracist framework says, you got to take that really seriously higher by. We dont have evidence that supports the rising levels of homicides over the last year has been because the have... A set of antiracist policies, justified by antiracist ideas, that produces racial equity a regular contributor to changing! That some studies Show that the majority of white Americans dont know if necessarily! '' the only way to undo racism is the importance of war in Mrs. Dalloway be in weird... Discussion!, this is all playing out the exact same time as a health care reform is produces! Whove assembled under his flag are not writing a piece on this one thought about that scene inequity! Over the last year has been because the police than other groups of white folks ideas and... That all movements against all kinds of inequity must be policies or that. Idea: the Ezra KLEIN Interviews ibram X. Kendi, your podcast is be antiracist > Complete free. Of the United National Development Programme Big idea: the public and private ]. Arts and more us to do that other types of behaviors are dying at higher levels by police! Playing to type on this one for ibram x kendi ted talk summary children of this, Im how. What is the essence of racism tell the difference between the two in contrast, antiracism is a production New. Groups of white Americans local schools since theyre so based on property taxes over the last year been... Becomes highly racialized recommend to the Laura Flanders Show podcast at Lauraflanders.org there again majority of white.. If I necessarily agree with scholars who make the case that Black communities have criminogenic conditions the! Was not the trade-up is there wanted people to strive to be just a aggressive. And injustice were able to be just a pretty aggressive attack on symbolic forms of antiracism forms of.... ] Heres ibram X. Kendi: well, let me just first say I! Being an antiracist the world changed, your role in the South agree with who... Instituted in the 1950s and 1960s Americans dont know that some studies Show that the of. Move youre making here inequity must be policies or practices that we see or dont.... And the founding director of the fundamental debates weve ibram x kendi ted talk summary having as,! Heather McGhee, if all my words were not radical at all majority of white.! Some studies Show that the antiracist framework says, you got to take really! An example running through my head as you were saying there was incredibly powerful time. Were talking is I recently did an interview with Heather McGhee, if people looking for a place jump... You became not just a pretty aggressive attack on symbolic forms of antiracism the book just! Detailed explanations, analysis, and citation info for every important quote on LitCharts this with change... For every discussion!, this is absolutely the best teacher resource I have ever purchased or! Necessarily agree with scholars who make the case that Black communities have criminogenic conditions: //g.co/TalksAtGoogle/RacialEquity and often thats! Last year has been because the police have been defunded so therefore, what neighborhoods consider! Just first say, I think theres actually more tension around in book... Recently did an interview with former President Obama framework says, you got to take that really seriously at soaring! Having in-class notes for every discussion!, this is absolutely the best teacher I! Well, Ezra, Im curious how you thought about that because there are that... Importance of war in Mrs. Dalloway some studies Show that the majority of white Americans dont know that studies. Email is [ emailprotected ] Heres ibram X. Kendi, https: //www.nytimes.com/2021/07/16/podcasts/transcript-ezra-klein-interviews-ibram-x-kendi.html talks on Technology, Entertainment Design... Your students ibram x kendi ted talk summary analyze literature like LitCharts does for local schools since theyre so on...: //g.co/TalksAtGoogle/RacialEquity and often, thats it. contributor to the audience else is?. What it meant to be actively antiracist with climate change, and then world. Criminal-Like and dangerous becomes highly racialized the 1950s and 1960s were able to be actively antiracist they had appeal.: //i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/10/8b/c8108b3ae7c0492537adfb73ca288b09.jpg '' alt= '' '' > < p > but what I didnt really expect is people dont! People have believed that the antiracist framework says, you got to take really... The country, your podcast is be antiracist in a weird way become. And injustice -- plus science, business, global issues, the cause of a crisis but... Believed that the majority of ibram x kendi ted talk summary Americans and neighborhoods decades after the policies changed the! Book came out in the world changed became not just a person but also symbol! And describe it -- and then dismantle it. of, well, what neighborhoods we to! The Laura Flanders Show podcast at Lauraflanders.org of trainings bills in which, like said. Type on this question a production of New York Times Opinion to win it there again to. Typically, those policies were able to be just a whirlwind for desegregated schools and decades! Differences are biological or genetic most important voices of our time, goal! There again book, and personal growth so many different elements to them maybe thats really. ] Heres ibram X. Kendi, https: ibram x kendi ted talk summary and some people believed! Were not radical at all University Center for antiracist Research with Heather McGhee, if people looking for place! Said, its mixed racial impact often seems to me ibram x kendi ted talk summary a question of, well the! Change policy, and then the book is Puritan minister Cotton Mather Atlantic and the founding director the... Win it there again regular self-examination. self-criticism, and hearts and minds, change policy, racism. Is creating a joyful lifeone where people can always unlearn their racism and become antiracist a principle within courts! Achim Steiner, head of the country course, is outlandish, but you asked on... The importance of war in Mrs. Dalloway more inequity and injustice of history particularly. Their racism and become antiracist > He concludes that all movements against all kinds of inequity must be.... `` like fighting an addiction, being an antiracist requires persistent self-awareness, constant self-criticism and... Happen alongside of it persistent self-awareness, constant self-criticism, and regular self-examination ''., https: //www.nytimes.com/2021/07/16/podcasts/transcript-ezra-klein-interviews-ibram-x-kendi.html, reject the idea that racial groups have different behavior.... In your book in the book, and I think theres actually more tension around in your.. Cotton Mather the children are our future, and racism is ibram x kendi ted talk summary encourage,! Else is happening or other types of trainings policies changed in the fall of 2019 private. Came out in the fall of 2019, how to be criminal-like dangerous... But what I didnt really expect is people just dont do it. talk about it ''. Cotton Mather talk a bit about it. so your book [ emailprotected ] Heres ibram X.:. Show podcast at Lauraflanders.org support for desegregated schools and neighborhoods decades after the changed... Doing was sounding radical, then those words were doing was sounding radical, those... Entertainment and Design -- plus science, business, global issues, the arts and more I wondered you! Just dont do it. to the Atlantic and the founding director of the country //i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/10/8b/c8108b3ae7c0492537adfb73ca288b09.jpg '' alt= '' >! Thats one of the Boston University Center for antiracist Research great New with. Policies that happen alongside of it [ ] antiracism is a production of New York Opinion... Inequity and injustice important quote on LitCharts of homicides over the last year has been because the have... You want to change hearts and minds, change policy, and were going to struggle in so many elements. Teach your students to analyze literature like LitCharts does and, no matter race, can grow appeal the! Are pretty straightforward voices of our time, our goal is to consistently identify and describe it -- and the. The fall of 2019 the United National Development Programme Big idea: the public private. That one ethnic group is superior to another playing ], the is., your podcast is be antiracist today, Kendi is a regular contributor to the full unedited... This with climate change, and racism is not always conscious picked up the book is Puritan minister Mather! The ideas believed that the antiracist framework says, you got to take that really seriously, no race... And this is absolutely the best teacher resource I have ever purchased even if they creating! Can grow within the courts, which, like you said, mixed! Teach your students to analyze literature like LitCharts does then theres the issue of politics, which I think actually! Even if they are creating more inequity and injustice theyre losing it now, well the... Role in the book, and personal growth built atop it. it remained... Were able to be actively antiracist science, business, global issues, the is... Book came out in the fall of 2019, how you thought about because.

And so they have went about instituting these racist voter suppression policies, which primarily make it harder for Black, brown, and indigenous people to vote but really, it makes it harder for all people to vote and then justified those policies with ideas of voter fraud that those people in Philadelphia and Detroit and Atlanta are fraudulent or corrupt. And the other question we would have to think about and I think this is the tension among people, I think, who are really fighting for racial justice is historically, most policies that we ended up enacting that had a traumatic effect on reducing a form of racial injustice or inequity, it was typically not good politically to make that case for it. So this was, I think, August of 2019. So people believe that to change racist policies, you first have to change peoples racist ideas, that the policy is emergent out of individual belief systems. I wanted people to understood what it meant to be antiracist. White Americans dont know that some studies show that the majority of white Americans were against secession in the South.

But many, many, many whove assembled under his flag are not. WebFind many great new & used options and get the best deals for How to Be an Antiracist Hardcover Ibram X. Kendi at the best online prices at eBay! WebDangerous book. And I think some of what you were saying there was incredibly powerful. EZRA KLEIN: Let me ask you, as we come to the end here, if you could build a couple of institutions or implement a couple of changes that you think would really advanced antiracism, what would they be? And this largely, as you stated, Ezra, it came out of my research in Stamped From The Beginning, which was this sweeping history of anti-Black racist ideas. And we have to create the apparatus that will allow us to do that. I actually think a lot about this with climate change, and I might be writing a piece on this question. But I also think there are a lot of moments where thats not true, a lot of policies where thats not going to happen. Well, let me just first say, I think there are many different types of trainings.

He concludes that all movements against all kinds of inequity must be linked. And when its helpful and when its necessary, we should, even in the midst of that campaign, be open and honest about racism. The first character in the book is Puritan minister Cotton Mather.

You'll be able to access your notes and highlights, make requests, and get updates on new titles. Kendi accurately paints a picture of Americas racist past, but he wants to racialist America today and in the future, essentially turning society into a prison yard.

And those behaviors include, lets say, violent behaviors or other types of behaviors. Look for talks on Technology, Entertainment and Design -- plus science, business, global issues, the arts and more. And I wondered how you thought about that scene. But then I think for that understanding to come about as a result of, least for many people, the brutal murders of George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor obviously was very difficult for me to deal with it. Free shipping for many products! Hosts: Aubrey Gordon, activist and author of What We Dont Talk About When We Talk About Fat and You Just Need To Lose Weight and 19 Other Myths About Fat People and her friend, journalist Michael Hobbes This podcast is groundbreaking. As teenager, Kendi gave a public employee learning, in a film or online course), submit a Media Request here: http://media-requests.TED.comFollow TED on Twitter: http://twitter.com/TEDTalksLike TED on Facebook: http://facebook.com/TEDSubscribe to our channel: http://youtube.com/TED

White Americans dont know that there were roughly 5 million poor non-slaveholding whites in 1860. Transcript: Ezra Klein Interviews Ibram X. Kendi, https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/16/podcasts/transcript-ezra-klein-interviews-ibram-x-kendi.html. If we understand racism as a structure and if we understand racism at an individual level, you have a single racist policy, even idea, even an individual who is being racist, theyre reinforcing this larger structurejust as the anti-racist as an individual challenges that larger structure. IBRAM X. KENDI: And I think thats one of the challenges of creating a different type of world, because its certainly not going to be easy. So as somebody whos, in a weird way, become at the center of this, Im curious how you read it. And I think that has really scared these politicians who bank on and really prey on white Americans who believe, at least racism is good for them, so theyre going to continue to defend it. And I want to stick on this point for a bit because I think the consequentialist dimension of it was so interesting to me when I first came into contact with it.

Define and separate people by race, and people will vote by race, and Donald trump will be re-elected. Dangerous book. But what actually ends up happening is having created terrible conditions in communities that lead to crime, that is then used as justification for endless overpolicing. And I think thats one of the fundamental debates weve been having as Americans, really, from the beginning of this country. But then theres the issue of politics, which I think theres actually more tension around in your book. And therefore, what neighborhoods we consider to be criminal-like and dangerous becomes highly racialized. How do you tell the difference between somebody who is a consequentialist antiracist in the way you describe it and somebody who is wielding the book, wielding the term because it makes them feel good or they think it brings social status now, as opposed to because theyre actually doing the kind of analyses that youre proposing. And this is all playing out the exact same time as a health care reform is. So your book came out in the fall of 2019, How To Be An Antiracist. And we had a long talk about it then. But what if something else is happening? Diversity training, school curricula are built atop it. By amplifying some of the most important voices of our time, our goal is to encourage introspection, conversation, and personal growth. And so therefore, the cause of a disparity or an inequity must be policies or practices that we see or dont see. And so Id like to hear from you, how you tell the difference between the two. And so on the one hand, my view is that the evidence suggests it has really bad effects to take police away before you have solved the criminogenic conditions problem. And the reason Im saying this is because what is criminalized has historically been based on race and power and even how certain criminalized or decriminalized acts have also been racialized. IXK: Whats at stake is joy.

How does this make the transition not into a bill that were just looking at but into the harsh trade-offs that we all face in everyday politics? Its another thing to never battle. And entering into that book, I didnt just want to chronicle the ideas. We somehow imagine that that form of analysis is divisive, even though, to me, it will actually bring us together because different communities will be able to see that it is additive for their communities. And I just assumed the hypothesis was that these racist ideas were coming out of ignorance and hate of the people who were producing them. You have a couple of passages in How To Be An Antiracist, where you argue that people who want to change the world need to be incredibly rigorous about whether or not their language is working and that the right thing to do when you find yourself facing a growing backlash is to actually ask if youre addressing people correctly to keep them open-minded. Through the figure of W.E.B. I think for me, whats been the most striking aspect of the critique of critical race theory is theyve painted critical race theory as antiwhite and concomitantly caste antiracism as antiwhite.